{"slug":"four-masters-dialogue","title":"对话4位摄影大咖，探讨这几个影友最关注的问题！","author":"Thomas看看世界","date":"2020-07-19","wechat":"https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s?__biz=MzI4NDA5MzE5NQ==&mid=2247490944&idx=1&sn=12a94fb01629a807bf9ebd1dbfa5ec5c&chksm=eb81e3e4dcf66af22dc92bdfe1730f0f1a1027e5ec81cbde7e3c885ea02515a08cda8edbd3ce&scene=21#wechat_redirect","blocks":[{"t":"h","x":"Thomas看看世界","xe":"Thomas Chu Photo"},{"t":"p","x":"前段时间，Thomas在地平线网络大讲堂，和云漫、杰夫、范朝亮、北京张子等4位北美华人摄影大咖进行了访谈，提出了11个摄影相关的问题，在思维和观点上进行了碰撞。","b":false,"xe":"Recently, at the Horizon Online Lecture Hall (地平线网络大讲堂), Thomas interviewed four North American Chinese photography masters — Yunman (云漫), Jeff (杰夫), Fan Chaoliang (范朝亮), and Beijing Zhangzi (北京张子) — raising 11 photography-related questions and exchanging ideas and viewpoints."},{"t":"p","x":"今天Thomas精选了其中影友最关注的几个问题，把3个半小时的访谈内容压缩到一篇文章中，相信影友们从中定会有一些收获。","b":false,"xe":"Today Thomas has selected the questions that fellow photographers care about most, condensing the 3.5-hour interview into a single article. We believe you will surely gain something from it."},{"t":"img","f":"img-02","w":800,"h":600},{"t":"h","x":"1. 什么是好照片？","xe":"1. What Is a Good Photo?"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"想请各位老师谈谈：好的影像作品是如何定义的，在评价风光和野生动物等不同类别摄影时，标准上有哪些异同？","b":false,"xe":"We'd like to ask the teachers: how is a good photographic work defined? When judging different categories such as landscape and wildlife photography, what are the similarities and differences in the criteria?"},{"t":"p","x":"范朝亮：","b":false,"xe":"Fan Chaoliang:"},{"t":"p","x":"什么是好作品呢？这个题目非常大，各种摄影作品的评价标准有他们的共同点。","b":false,"xe":"What is a good work? This is a huge question. The evaluation criteria for various kinds of photographic works do share common ground."},{"t":"p","x":"我在《摄影范谈》文章里面，把摄影的水平分成四个层次，从技术层次到艺术层次，再到语言的层次，最后到历史的层次。","b":false,"xe":"In my article series \"Fan Talks Photography\" (《摄影范谈》), I divided the levels of photography into four tiers: from the technical level to the artistic level, then to the level of language, and finally to the historical level."},{"t":"img","f":"img-03","w":960,"h":720},{"t":"p","x":"我在讲座里面，又把好摄影的要素分成七个要素。这前面三个要素，是一般沙龙摄影比赛规范性的要求。","b":false,"xe":"In my lectures, I further divided the elements of good photography into seven. The first three of these are the standard requirements of typical salon photography competitions."},{"t":"img","f":"img-04","w":960,"h":720},{"t":"p","x":"它们就是，要有技术性，构图要主题突出，有震撼力。一般的标准的比赛都是用这三个标准来打分的。","b":false,"xe":"They are: technical quality, composition with a prominent subject, and impact. Ordinary standard competitions all score by these three criteria."},{"t":"p","x":"但是只是这三个标准还远远不够，作为一个真正的摄影作品来讲，我们有更高的要求。我们要看这个摄影作品有没有创意，有没有故事性，情绪，是不是有真诚性，有没有历史性。","b":false,"xe":"But these three criteria alone are far from enough. For a true photographic work, we have higher requirements. We must look at whether the work has creativity, storytelling, emotion, sincerity, and historic significance."},{"t":"p","x":"所谓的历史性，这就是不可重复的，有历史意义的。当然这些要素也不是硬性划分的，比如技术性和构图也会影响到震撼力，故事性和创意也会影响到震撼力。所以这七个要素之间互相有联系。","b":false,"xe":"By historic significance I mean something unrepeatable, of historical value. Of course, these elements are not rigidly divided either — for instance, technical quality and composition also affect impact, and storytelling and creativity also affect impact. So these seven elements are interconnected."},{"t":"img","f":"img-05","w":1080,"h":608},{"t":"p","x":"范朝亮 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Fan Chaoliang"},{"t":"p","x":"那么不同类别的摄影作品之间有什么不同的要求呢？","b":false,"xe":"So what different requirements apply to different categories of photographic works?"},{"t":"p","x":"从某种程度上来说，和这个拍摄的条件有关系。一个风光摄影师，一般来讲有相对宽裕的时间去拍摄，而且拍摄的内容常常也可以重复。所以我们对风光摄影作品，对它技术的要求，构图的要求，光色上的要求，总体上要远远超过其他类别的摄影。","b":false,"xe":"To a certain extent, it relates to the shooting conditions. A landscape photographer generally has relatively ample time to shoot, and the subject matter can often be repeated. So our requirements for landscape works — technically, compositionally, and in light and color — overall far exceed those of other categories of photography."},{"t":"p","x":"同样我们对人文摄影，和棚拍的人像摄影的要求也不一样。棚拍摄影的环境可以控制，我们对它技术要求会非常高。","b":false,"xe":"Likewise, our requirements for documentary photography and for studio portrait photography also differ. In studio photography the environment can be controlled, so our technical requirements for it are extremely high."},{"t":"p","x":"而人文的摄影，就要求它故事性要更强。然后对一些光色的要求呢，会相对弱一点。所以一张摄影作品，在它恰当的类别之中比较才有意义。","b":false,"xe":"Documentary photography, on the other hand, demands stronger storytelling, while the requirements for light and color are relatively weaker. So a photographic work is only meaningfully compared within its proper category."},{"t":"img","f":"img-06","w":1080,"h":608},{"t":"p","x":"范朝亮 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Fan Chaoliang"},{"t":"p","x":"现在有一种做法是偷换类别，比如讲一个建筑，我们在上面P了个飞机。做这样的改变，就不是一个建筑摄影了。","b":false,"xe":"There is now a practice of swapping categories: for example, taking a building and Photoshopping an airplane onto it. With such a change, it is no longer architectural photography."},{"t":"p","x":"因为我们P了一架飞机在上面，改变了现实。这样一个摄影，应该分类为创意摄影。但是这样p了一架飞机的建筑摄影，在创意摄影里面的创意来讲，它简直是小儿科，简直谈不上什么创意。","b":false,"xe":"Because we Photoshopped an airplane onto it, reality was altered. Such a photograph should be classified as creative photography. But judged for creativity within creative photography, that building photo with a Photoshopped plane is child's play — hardly any creativity at all."},{"t":"img","f":"img-07","w":1000,"h":664},{"t":"p","x":"这张照片就是偷偷的把摄影的类别给改了，用一个创意摄影的作品去参加建筑摄影的比赛。后来得了奖也被取消了。我们不是不可以艺术创作，而是不能用艺术创作的借口来产生不公平的竞争。","b":false,"xe":"That photo secretly changed the category of photography, entering an architectural photography competition with a creative-photography work. It later won an award, which was then revoked. It's not that artistic creation is forbidden — but the excuse of artistic creation must not be used to create unfair competition."},{"t":"h","x":"2. 视频对摄影的影响","xe":"2. The Impact of Video on Photography"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"摄影的出现曾经改变了绘画的历史，而当今又是一个短视频爆发的时代。很多摄影师开始拥抱视频，也有的摄影师开始重新思考平面摄影的定位。各位老师怎么看待这个发展趋势？对摄影师和摄影爱好者们有何建议？","b":false,"xe":"The emergence of photography once changed the history of painting, and today is an era of exploding short video. Many photographers have begun embracing video, while others have begun rethinking the position of still photography. How do the teachers view this trend? Any advice for photographers and enthusiasts?"},{"t":"p","x":"北京张子：","b":false,"xe":"Beijing Zhangzi:"},{"t":"p","x":"不管是器材设备还是网络内容，在过去的这几年变化非常大，真是天翻地覆的变化。现在很多消费级的相机都提供很好的视频功能，在五到十年前连很多专业机机身可能都没有提供这些功能。价格也很平民化。","b":false,"xe":"Whether equipment or online content, the changes over the past few years have been enormous — truly earth-shaking. Many consumer cameras now offer very good video features; five to ten years ago even many professional bodies might not have offered them. Prices have also become very affordable."},{"t":"p","x":"我自己曾经给Getty Images提供了多年的图片素材，从大概三年前开始吧，他们每次联系我的时候，就更多的来问我有没有视频的素材可以让他们商用。而最近的一年甚至很多时候来问我有没有3D的视频或者全景的视频素材，我觉得像他们这样的机构一定是最接近也是最了解市场的需求。","b":false,"xe":"I myself supplied image material to Getty Images for many years. Starting about three years ago, whenever they contacted me they asked more and more whether I had video material they could use commercially. In the past year they have often even asked whether I have 3D video or panoramic video material. I think institutions like them must be the closest to, and most aware of, market demand."},{"t":"img","f":"img-08","w":1080,"h":608},{"t":"p","x":"杰夫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Jeff"},{"t":"p","x":"我一直觉得视频是作者给观众在讲故事，而图片是作者让观众自己来想故事。比如一段视频可以很清楚而且很完整地表达一只猎豹怎么花了九牛二虎之力捕杀了一只羚羊。从跟踪，到追逐，再到扑倒，然后窒息，然后再大快朵颐。","b":false,"xe":"I have always felt that video is the author telling the audience a story, while a still image is the author letting the audience imagine the story themselves. For example, a video can clearly and completely show how a cheetah expends enormous effort to hunt down an antelope: from stalking, to chasing, to pouncing, to suffocating, to feasting."},{"t":"p","x":"图片让观众看到了最精彩的那个瞬间，但前后发了什么就留给观众自己去想象。","b":false,"xe":"A still image shows the audience the most brilliant instant — but what happened before and after is left to the audience's own imagination."},{"t":"h","x":"3. 打卡与模仿","xe":"3. Check-In Spots and Imitation"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"在大众旅游时代，打卡现象盛行，一旦有新的卡点出现，很快大众就会蜂拥而至。各位老师如何看待这种打卡和模仿现象？在小众景点越来越少的情况下，摄影爱好者又需要如何创作出有特色的作品呢？","b":false,"xe":"In the era of mass tourism, the check-in phenomenon is prevalent: once a new photogenic spot appears, the masses quickly swarm to it. How do the teachers view this check-in and imitation phenomenon? With fewer and fewer niche locations, how can photography enthusiasts still create distinctive works?"},{"t":"p","x":"云漫：","b":false,"xe":"Yunman:"},{"t":"p","x":"打卡现象的确彻底改变了风光摄影。我们可以说目前社交网上绝大多数热门风光片，都是集中在全世界几十个最热门的打卡点，也许就那么30-50个？反正数量真不多。从某种意义上来说这真是一个悲剧，但如果要展开深入谈的话，又不那么简单了。","b":false,"xe":"The check-in phenomenon has indeed thoroughly changed landscape photography. We could say that the vast majority of popular landscape photos on social media today are concentrated at a few dozen of the world's hottest check-in spots — maybe just 30 to 50? Anyway, the number is really small. In a sense this is truly a tragedy, but if we go deeper, it's not that simple."},{"t":"img","f":"img-09","w":675,"h":900},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman (云漫)"},{"t":"p","x":"首先作为初学者，打卡和模仿这事本身没有什么丢人的。","b":false,"xe":"First of all, for beginners, there is nothing shameful about checking in and imitating."},{"t":"p","x":"模仿是学习的第一步，看看别人如何取景、如何选择光线、怎样后期处理，这样模仿多了，自己的眼光也会不断长进。","b":false,"xe":"Imitation is the first step of learning. Look at how others frame their shots, how they choose light, how they post-process — imitate enough, and your own eye will keep improving."},{"t":"p","x":"就算是资深爱好者或专业摄影师，打卡这事本身也完全可以理解。首先我们也是人，也想旅游。看到一个好地方，哪怕从来不发表照片的普通大众都想去看看，我们摄影师也想去看看啊，太正常了。既然去了，特别是第一次去，不在一些打卡点按几下快门，好像很难忍住。","b":false,"xe":"Even for seasoned enthusiasts or professional photographers, checking in is completely understandable. First, we are people too — we also want to travel. Seeing a wonderful place, even ordinary folks who never publish photos want to go see it — of course we photographers want to see it too; that's perfectly normal. And having gone there — especially the first time — it seems hard to resist pressing the shutter a few times at the check-in spots."},{"t":"p","x":"如果我碰到非常难得一遇的光影或天气，打卡点照片我也会发表。比如美国锡安国家公园的这张秋色落日。","b":false,"xe":"If I encounter truly rare light or weather, I will publish check-in-spot photos too — for example, this autumn sunset at Zion National Park in the US."},{"t":"img","f":"img-10","w":600,"h":900},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"打卡这事本身真没啥不对的。问题是，打卡后怎么办？","b":false,"xe":"There is really nothing wrong with checking in itself. The question is: what do you do after checking in?"},{"t":"p","x":"对初学者来说，在著名景点打卡，回来朋友圈一发，点赞无数，“毒，大师，牛”评价一大堆，自信大涨，挺好。","b":false,"xe":"For beginners: check in at a famous spot, post it to your friend circle back home, get countless likes, a pile of \"toxic! master! awesome!\" comments, and a big confidence boost — that's fine."},{"t":"p","x":"这样的鼓励会让很多人继续去认真拍下去。但初学者不应该在打卡-获大量点赞-轻飘飘自傲这个阶段停留太久。应该尽快超越这一阶段。","b":false,"xe":"Such encouragement keeps many people shooting seriously. But beginners should not linger too long in the stage of check-in → lots of likes → smug pride. They should move beyond this stage as soon as possible."},{"t":"p","x":"不同照片有不同用途。打卡片当然可以去杂志或网上发表，说不定还特别受欢迎。但作为摄影师，我们自己心里要有自知之明，给不是很懂摄影的大众 (比如普通旅游杂志读者），给懂得一些摄影的大众（比如大多数摄影爱好者），或者给专家同行看，用途不同，评判标准完全不一样。","b":false,"xe":"Different photos have different uses. Check-in photos can of course be published in magazines or online — they might even be especially popular. But as photographers, we must know our own level: showing to the general public who don't understand photography (say, ordinary travel-magazine readers), to a public that knows some photography (most enthusiasts), or to expert peers — different audiences, completely different standards."},{"t":"p","x":"你自己需要清楚它能不能代表你的当前水准。你需要懂得你的读者。比方要参加摄影比赛，那就建议别去送打卡片去了。但是你要去作别的事儿，比如说给旅游杂志写文章，那你不妨去送打卡片，没事儿。","b":false,"xe":"You yourself need to be clear whether it represents your current level. You need to know your readers. For example, if entering a photography competition, my advice is: don't submit check-in photos. But if you're doing something else — say, writing an article for a travel magazine — then by all means send the check-in photos, no problem."},{"t":"img","f":"img-11","w":1080,"h":720},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"讲完了对打卡这个事本身的观点之后，我现在说一下怎么样去拍出比较有特色的作品。","b":false,"xe":"Having finished my view on checking in itself, let me now talk about how to shoot more distinctive works."},{"t":"p","x":"大约1-2个月前，我讲过什么是顶级风光摄影作品的标准。我提出，我们应该去拍摄“人所不能见”，或“人所不见”的作品。","b":false,"xe":"About 1–2 months ago, I discussed the standard for top-tier landscape photography. I proposed that we should shoot works of \"what people cannot see\" or \"what people do not see.\""},{"t":"p","x":"“人所不能见“是指绝大多数人没有机会去看去拍的场景。很多人可能觉得这世界上已经没有新鲜景物了。其实完全不是。这世界上有太多地方没有人去拍过，或者很少有人去过。只不过它们不在路边，不是那么随便可以拍到的而已。","b":false,"xe":"\"What people cannot see\" refers to scenes the vast majority of people have no opportunity to see or shoot. Many people may feel there are no fresh scenes left in this world. That is completely untrue. There are so many places in this world that no one has photographed, or that few have visited. It's just that they are not by the roadside — you can't just casually shoot them."},{"t":"p","x":"所以，如果你有勇气和能力、足够强的户外本领和体力，我鼓励大家远离打卡点，自己去探索荒野。反正我常这样做，托马斯也常去格陵兰/K2这些荒野去探索。","b":false,"xe":"So if you have the courage and ability — strong enough outdoor skills and stamina — I encourage everyone to leave the check-in spots and explore the wilderness yourselves. I often do this anyway, and Thomas often goes exploring in wilderness areas like Greenland and K2."},{"t":"p","x":"如果你说我自己没那个本事或胆量怎么办？你可以考虑和户外达人朋友一起去，或者找一些户外专业公司带你去。","b":false,"xe":"What if you say you don't have that ability or nerve? You can consider going with outdoor-expert friends, or finding professional outdoor companies to take you."},{"t":"p","x":"如果去荒无人烟的地方去冒险，去拍“人所不能见“真不属于你的个性，你害怕怎么办？那么可以考虑拍“人所不见\"。就是在大众打卡点，在每年几十万几百万人拍过的地方，去找自己独特的角度。","b":false,"xe":"What if venturing into desolate places to shoot \"what people cannot see\" really isn't your personality, and you're afraid? Then consider shooting \"what people do not see\": at mass check-in spots, in places photographed by hundreds of thousands or millions of people every year, find your own unique angle."},{"t":"img","f":"img-12","w":1080,"h":1521},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"这里最关键的是什么？最关键是要有这个意愿，一定要积极主动去找新角度，不能说我到这个地方拍张打卡点就行了，一定要去找新的角度。当然了，光有一个意愿还不够，你还得确实需要有你的眼光去发现一些独特的地方。这需要慢慢培养。","b":false,"xe":"What is most crucial here? Most crucial is having the willingness — you must actively and proactively look for new angles. You can't say, \"I'll just take a check-in shot at this spot and be done\" — you must look for new angles. Of course, willingness alone is not enough; you also truly need the eye to discover unique places. That needs to be cultivated slowly."},{"t":"p","x":"很多人可能都知道我的一些著名作品，都是在几百万人拍过的地方拍到的极其独特的角度。我不只一次两次做到这样，这说明不是靠运气偶然看到一个新角度，而是努力的结果。哪怕在最俗气的打卡点，我们还是有可能找到属于自己的，最独特的视角。下面几张都是在现在最热门的景点拍摄的，你能看出是哪儿吗？","b":false,"xe":"Many people probably know that some of my famous works were shot at extremely unique angles in places photographed by millions. I have done this more than once or twice, which shows it is not luck — not accidentally stumbling on a new angle — but the result of effort. Even at the tackiest check-in spots, we can still find our own most unique perspective. The following photos were all taken at today's hottest attractions — can you tell where they are?"},{"t":"img","f":"img-13","w":1080,"h":432},{"t":"img","f":"img-14","w":1080,"h":720},{"t":"img","f":"img-15","w":1080,"h":810},{"t":"img","f":"img-16","w":1080,"h":810},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"刚才发的这几张实际上都是在目前最热门的景点拍出来的，我想不那么容易看出来是哪儿对吧？包括班夫国家公园，包括巴塔哥尼亚，包括羚羊谷，包括马蹄湾等等。","b":false,"xe":"The photos just shown were actually all taken at the hottest attractions of the moment — not so easy to tell where, right? They include Banff National Park, Patagonia, Antelope Canyon, Horseshoe Bend, and so on."},{"t":"h","x":"4. 审美疲劳","xe":"4. Aesthetic Fatigue"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"在社交媒体时代，图像不再稀缺。从南美的星空到北极的极光，甚至动物捕食的精彩瞬间和激动人心的延时航拍，人们也见得越来越多并产生了审美疲劳。想请问各位老师会有这种审美疲劳吗？对创作者而言有何建议。","b":false,"xe":"In the social media era, images are no longer scarce. From South American starry skies to Arctic auroras, and even brilliant moments of animal predation and exciting time-lapse aerials — people have seen more and more of everything, and aesthetic fatigue has set in. May I ask the teachers: do you experience such aesthetic fatigue? Any suggestions for creators?"},{"t":"p","x":"北京张子：","b":false,"xe":"Beijing Zhangzi:"},{"t":"p","x":"审美疲劳其实有时候确实也是一种烦恼，但整体来说这样的机会不多。","b":false,"xe":"Aesthetic fatigue is indeed sometimes a kind of annoyance, but on the whole such occasions are rare for me."},{"t":"p","x":"一方面我自己也在尝试很多新的东西，比如像视频，航拍这些新的方向，从技术，设备这些角度总会有新的问题新的挑战需要我去思考和解决，所以也可以说是根本没时间来让自己烦恼。","b":false,"xe":"On one hand, I myself keep trying many new things — new directions like video and aerial photography. From the technical and equipment angles there are always new problems and new challenges for me to think about and solve, so you could say I simply have no time to fret."},{"t":"p","x":"我到现在去过冰岛大概十次，然后挪威大概至少七八次了，到现在为止我每次再去我都还有新的发现，有新的尝试。","b":false,"xe":"I have been to Iceland about ten times now, and Norway at least seven or eight times — and to this day, every time I go back I still make new discoveries and new attempts."},{"t":"img","f":"img-17","w":1080,"h":643},{"t":"p","x":"北京张子 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Beijing Zhangzi"},{"t":"p","x":"最早去的是完全拍图片，然后开始拍延时摄影，然后延时摄影又加滑轨加转盘，再后来开始无人机，无人机先从图片又到视频，下面其实我还想试试穿越机。","b":false,"xe":"My earliest trips were purely still photography; then I started shooting time-lapse; then time-lapse plus sliders and turntables; then drones — first stills, then video; and next I actually want to try FPV drones."},{"t":"p","x":"其实一次一次我觉得每次让我又想去的原因就是设备的更新和技术上的更新，我希望看到我利用这些东西怎么样能够让我在这些地方拍到更好的影像。其实还是像我刚才提到的，我觉得我们是生在一个很好的时代。","b":false,"xe":"Actually, time after time, I feel the reason each trip makes me want to go again is the renewal of equipment and technique: I want to see how I can use these things to capture better imagery in these places. As I mentioned just now, I do feel we are born in a wonderful era."},{"t":"h","x":"5. 欧美风格与中国风格","xe":"5. European/American Style vs. Chinese Style"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"很多欧美摄影的流行风格和进阶技术，我开始都是通过看各位老师的文章和帖子学习的。各位老师最开始是如何接触到这些前沿的技术的呢？","b":false,"xe":"I first learned many popular European/American photography styles and advanced techniques by reading the teachers' articles and posts. How did the teachers first come into contact with these cutting-edge techniques?"},{"t":"p","x":"现在越来越多的年轻摄影师模仿这些欧美色调和拍法，对此，各位老师有何看法？有没有可能从中国文化和生活中挖掘出新的内容和风格呢？","b":false,"xe":"Now more and more young photographers imitate these European/American color tones and shooting methods. What do the teachers think of this? Is it possible to excavate new content and styles from Chinese culture and life?"},{"t":"p","x":"云漫：","b":false,"xe":"Yunman:"},{"t":"p","x":"就像刚才John Fan说的那样，现在学摄影的确太幸福了，网上有无数的教程，付费的也好免费的也有，任何一个技术，搜一下就能找到很多文字或视频教程。","b":false,"xe":"As John Fan said just now, learning photography these days is truly a blessing — there are countless tutorials online, paid or free; for any technique, one search finds many written or video tutorials."},{"t":"p","x":"我们一开始的确学习起来很困难。我觉得每一个人的学习路径可能都不一样。我是典型的科研型理工男，做任何事都喜欢琢磨。很多现在看起来的“高级技法”，比如曝光合成、景深合成、都是我自己琢磨出来的。","b":false,"xe":"For us, learning was indeed difficult at the start. I think everyone's learning path may differ. I am a typical research-minded science-and-engineering person — I love pondering everything I do. Many techniques that now look \"advanced,\" such as exposure blending and focus stacking, I figured out myself."},{"t":"p","x":"一般来说我是看思路。比方说我看到一个摄影师提到“高光渲染”概念，我真是不很在意他是如何做到的，比如第一步做什么第二步做什么。我只要知道这个概念，然后受到启发“哦，这个想法真的很不错”。一般来说，我很快就可以想到用几种不同的办法去实现它。其实任何一种后期的目标都有好几种办法实现，也没有对错。我们选自己顺手就行了。","b":false,"xe":"Generally I look at the idea. For example, when I see a photographer mention the concept of \"highlight rendering,\" I really don't much care how he did it — like what step one is, what step two is. I only need to know the concept, and get inspired — \"oh, this idea is really nice.\" Generally, I can quickly think of several different ways to achieve it. In fact, any post-processing goal has several ways to achieve it, with no right or wrong. We just pick whichever suits our hands."},{"t":"img","f":"img-18","w":1080,"h":540},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"关于当下流行的一些技术、色调、和风格，我想说几句。我觉得现在目前最大的问题吧，就是信息太多。太多初学者迷恋于层出不穷的各种技巧教程。很多人迷恋这样的所谓“干货”。总是梦想学到几招教程，就能出大片。但我认为这是方向性错误。","b":false,"xe":"About some currently popular techniques, color tones, and styles, I want to say a few words. I think the biggest problem right now is too much information. Too many beginners are obsessed with an endless stream of technique tutorials — obsessed with so-called \"solid takeaways,\" always dreaming that learning a few tricks from a tutorial will produce masterpieces. But I think that is a directional error."},{"t":"p","x":"比如说，把画面里一个地方压暗是你的目的。但是方案可能有十种十几办法，你为啥要把每一种都去学习一遍？其实花太多时间去学无数技巧上的结果是什么？你没有时间去真正掌握如何用技巧。","b":false,"xe":"For example, darkening some area of the frame is your goal. But there may be ten or more ways to do it — why learn every single one? What is the actual result of spending too much time learning countless techniques? You have no time left to truly master how to use technique."},{"t":"p","x":"你还不如去跟一个或两个老师，你别跟今天跟一个老师学，明天跟另一个老师学另一个技术。不如去跟一两个人学习两种最简单的办法，但你学深入了，你反复用1000次，我相信效果会好很多，思路永远比技巧重要太多了。","b":false,"xe":"You would do better to follow one or two teachers — not learn from one teacher today and another technique from another teacher tomorrow. Better to learn the two simplest methods from one or two people, but learn them deeply, then apply them a thousand times — I believe the effect will be far better. Ideas are forever far more important than techniques."},{"t":"img","f":"img-19","w":1080,"h":720},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"我总说，我的90%的后期，可以靠曲线、蒙版、高斯模糊这三个最简单的工具去完成。不需要什么高级技巧。只有在碰到少数更加复杂的情况，比如需要重新塑造光影或其他一些事情，我才可能动用更加高级工具。那些高级工具你可以学，但是大部分时候，你用几个工具简单的工具就行了。","b":false,"xe":"I always say: 90% of my post-processing can be done with the three simplest tools — curves, masks, and Gaussian blur. No advanced techniques needed. Only when I encounter the rare, more complex situation — like needing to rebuild light and shadow — do I possibly bring out more advanced tools. You can learn those advanced tools, but most of the time, a few simple tools are enough."},{"t":"p","x":"再说一次， 花太多时间在学习过多技巧上，结果是你没有时间去真正掌握如何用技巧。还不如就学1-2种，但学深入了，然后反复用1000次。我的90%的后期，可以靠曲线、蒙版、高斯模糊这三个最简单的工具去完成。","b":false,"xe":"Once more: spending too much time learning too many techniques leaves you no time to truly master how to use technique. Better to learn 1–2 kinds, but deeply, then apply them a thousand times. 90% of my post-processing can be done with the three simplest tools: curves, masks, and Gaussian blur."},{"t":"img","f":"img-20","w":1080,"h":720},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"关于模仿色调和风格的事，我也想说几句。如果你真的喜欢这些风格，当然可以去模仿，然后发挥出自己的特色出来。","b":false,"xe":"About imitating color tones and styles, I also want to say a few words. If you genuinely love these styles, of course you can imitate them, and then develop your own characteristics from there."},{"t":"p","x":"但你这么做的原因应该是喜欢，而不是因为这风格现在流行，容易获得点赞，或者是某某名人告诉你应该这么做，比如云漫或托马斯说暗调风光最流行，然后你就去模仿暗调了。或者某某大师说极简黑白才是艺术，然后你就去模仿极简黑白了。你要看你是不是真爱这风格，这风格是否能真表现你的内心。","b":false,"xe":"But your reason for doing so should be love — not because the style is currently popular and gets likes easily, or because some celebrity told you to. For example, if Yunman or Thomas says dark-toned landscape is the trendiest, and you go imitate dark tones; or some master says minimalist black-and-white is the true art, and you go imitate minimalist black-and-white. You must ask whether you truly love the style — whether it can truly express your inner self."},{"t":"p","x":"美国有一个著名作家叫Robert Greene，他写过一本非常畅销的成功学励志书叫Mastery (中文版叫专精力)。","b":false,"xe":"There is a famous American author named Robert Greene, who wrote a best-selling success book called \"Mastery\" (Chinese edition: 《专精力》)."},{"t":"p","x":"书中研究了历史上一些大师，包括达芬奇，达尔文等，分析他们的成功之道。他认为，这些人所以成功，是因为我们每一个人都天生有一种自然倾向的东西。换句通俗的话就是对某一件事有真爱。","b":false,"xe":"The book studies some masters of history, including da Vinci and Darwin, analyzing their paths to success. He argues that these people succeeded because each of us is born with a natural inclination toward something — in plain words, a true love for a certain thing."},{"t":"p","x":"我们绝大多数人最好选择我们将来的人生目标和职业的时候，会受到太多的影响，功利世俗的影响，家长的影响，是否能赚钱等。","b":false,"xe":"When most of us choose our future life goals and careers, we are influenced by too much: utilitarian and worldly influence, parents' influence, whether it makes money, and so on."},{"t":"p","x":"我们并不是听从自己的内心的真爱的召唤，不顺从自己自然倾向，考虑太多赚钱、荣誉等。这样几年、十几年后，我们对自己的选择热情就消失了，也就不会认真去做好。而这些成功大师一定听从真爱的召唤。","b":false,"xe":"We do not heed the call of our heart's true love; we do not follow our natural inclination — we think too much about money, honor, and the like. Then a few years or a dozen years later, our passion for our choice fades, and we stop doing it earnestly. Those successful masters, by contrast, all heeded the call of true love."},{"t":"img","f":"img-21","w":675,"h":900},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"如果你本性是喜欢明快的风格，为啥一定去随大流去走魔幻黑暗风格？不觉得压抑吗？再比如我，我个人不喜欢只有形式美的照片。如果有人说极简风光才是艺术，别的都是糖水，我会让他走远点，这就是范博说的偏激。","b":false,"xe":"If your nature loves a bright, brisk style, why follow the crowd into the magical dark style? Doesn't it feel oppressive? Take me, for another example: I personally don't like photos with only formal beauty. If someone tells me minimalist landscape is the only art and everything else is sugar water, I'll tell him to take a hike — this is the extremism Fan (范博) spoke of."},{"t":"p","x":"虽然很多年前我写过文章大赞极简风光，但我现在变了，不喜欢了。我希望照片里有故事、有体验、有自然的神奇地貌或细节。所以我现在真不喜欢只有影调的所谓极简艺术片，对我来说它好看有装饰性但没有内涵，对我而言这才算是沙龙糖水。","b":false,"xe":"Although many years ago I wrote an article greatly praising minimalist landscapes, I have changed — I no longer like them. I want photos to have story, experience, and nature's magical landforms or details. So now I truly dislike so-called minimalist art pieces with only tonality — to me they are pretty and decorative but without substance; to me, that is the real salon sugar water."},{"t":"p","x":"但我喜欢的你不一定喜欢。我不能偏激。如果你偏偏就热爱这样的风格，那千万别听云漫忽悠，和他一样去拍什么波澜壮阔气势磅礴的大风光，那不适合你。拍这样的片你不会喜欢，会是一种折磨，那么收到再多点赞有啥用？去听从你内心召唤，拍你自己喜欢的风格。","b":false,"xe":"But what I like, you may not. I cannot be extremist. If you happen to love exactly that style, then by all means don't let Yunman talk you into shooting grand, magnificent big landscapes like him — that doesn't suit you. Shooting such pieces, you won't enjoy it — it will be torture — so what use are all those likes? Go heed the call of your heart, and shoot the style you yourself love."},{"t":"p","x":"那么，什么是天生自然倾向？换一句话，什么是真爱? 就像刚才范博问你的问题一样的，一个地方你不带相机去行不行？我换个问法，就是你拍的照片不准发表，不发表不分享，你还会不会拍？","b":false,"xe":"So, what is a born natural inclination? In other words, what is true love? It's the same as the question Fan asked you just now: can you go to a place without bringing a camera? Let me ask differently: if the photos you shoot may not be published — never published, never shared — would you still shoot?"},{"t":"img","f":"img-22","w":600,"h":900},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"最后，关于是否能够从中国文化中发掘题材和风格，当然可以了。两个月前一个中国摄影家杂志给我做了采访，编辑也问过这个问题。我当时我推荐大家去看有一年的金像奖获得者叶文龙先生的作品，他就是用从中国山水画里边得到灵感去拍风光。","b":false,"xe":"Finally, on whether we can excavate subjects and styles from Chinese culture — of course we can. Two months ago a Chinese photography magazine interviewed me, and the editor asked this very question. At the time I recommended everyone look at the works of Mr. Ye Wenlong (叶文龙), a Golden Statue Award winner one year — he draws inspiration from Chinese shanshui painting to shoot landscapes."},{"t":"p","x":"但是我想说的是，如果你这么做，如果你说那我也用中国山水的风格去拍，一定应该是你喜欢这种风格，而不是说这种风格能够出名，能够拿奖能够或点赞。如果你不喜欢但为了功利去就这么做，你肯定很难做好，也无法持久。","b":false,"xe":"But what I want to say is: if you do this — if you say, \"then I'll shoot in the Chinese shanshui style too\" — it must be because you love this style, not because this style can bring fame, awards, or likes. If you don't love it but do it for utilitarian purposes, you will surely find it hard to do well, and impossible to sustain."},{"t":"h","x":"6. 国内外摄影师的理念","xe":"6. The Philosophies of Domestic vs. International Photographers"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"国外摄影师和国内摄影师的摄影理念最关键的不同是什么? 相比之下，国内外摄影师各有什么优势和劣势？","b":false,"xe":"What is the most crucial difference between the photographic philosophies of foreign and domestic photographers? By comparison, what advantages and disadvantages do each have?"},{"t":"p","x":"云漫：","b":false,"xe":"Yunman:"},{"t":"p","x":"在我看来，国际风光摄影目前可能处于有史以来最好的时机。不管是在专业界还是业余界，风光摄影都是最受欢迎的题材之一。那么我为什么说现在是“最好时机”？这主要表现在下面几个方面：","b":false,"xe":"In my view, international landscape photography may currently be in the best moment it has ever had. In both professional and amateur circles, landscape photography is among the most popular subjects. So why do I say now is the \"best moment\"? It shows mainly in the following aspects:"},{"t":"p","x":"第一， 这个行业曾经主要靠极少数专业摄影师出作品，很多人其实才华一般，但只是他们是吃这碗饭的，所以他们比一般人更有机会去拍摄而已。但现在时代不一样了。数码技术的普及，传播媒介的翻天覆地的变化，人们业余时间和收入的大幅度增加，让大量富有才华并且真心热爱风光摄影的人进入了这个领域。","b":false,"xe":"First, this industry once relied mainly on a very small number of professional photographers to produce works. Many of them were of ordinary talent — but because it was their job, they simply had more opportunities to shoot than others. But times are different now. The spread of digital technology, the earth-shaking changes in media, and the great increase in people's leisure time and income have brought a large number of talented people who genuinely love landscape photography into this field."},{"t":"p","x":"我们不只是看到很多专业摄影师的水准远比以前好（刚才张子老师也讲过这点），还看到许许多多不亚于职业水准的业余爱好者大量发表高质量作品。这是第一点，所以我说这是最好的时候。","b":false,"xe":"We not only see that many professional photographers are now far better than before (as Teacher Zhangzi also mentioned just now) — we also see a great many amateurs, no less skilled than professionals, publishing high-quality works in large numbers. This is the first point — and why I say this is the best of times."},{"t":"img","f":"img-23","w":1080,"h":719},{"t":"p","x":"杰夫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Jeff"},{"t":"p","x":"第二， 从作品风格到拍摄前后期思路到技术，出现了大批新的东西。这也是前所未有的。","b":false,"xe":"Second, from the style of works to the thinking behind shooting and post-processing to technique, a great many new things have appeared. This too is unprecedented."},{"t":"p","x":"第三， 我们见到很多更加深入的拍摄方式。说实话，以前多数人，包括亚当斯，就是在路边拍摄。","b":false,"xe":"Third, we see many deeper ways of shooting. Honestly, most people in the past — including Ansel Adams — shot by the roadside."},{"t":"p","x":"现在不一样了。如果刚才我说的，很多人以前认为地球表面已经没有什么新地方可以拍摄。但是你看看当前最顶尖的那一批摄影师的拍摄。会发现世界上有一大批从来没有人涉足过或极少有人涉足过的地方，这些比较陌生的地方其实有很多令人惊叹的风景。","b":false,"xe":"Now it's different. As I said just now, many people used to think there were no new places left on the earth's surface to photograph. But look at the shooting of today's very top tier of photographers: you will find a large number of places in the world that no one, or almost no one, has ever set foot in — and these relatively unfamiliar places hold so much astonishing scenery."},{"t":"p","x":"所以我总结一下，就是当前国外的风光摄影状况怎么样？我们不说，至少是这批领军人物吧，国际上风光摄影的领军人物，他们特别讲究从内容到地点到技术方面的创新。这是非常非常重要的一个事情，不创新的话会被人看不起的。","b":false,"xe":"So to sum up: how is the current state of landscape photography abroad? Let's not speak of everyone — at least of the leading figures, the international leaders of landscape photography: they place particular emphasis on innovation in content, in location, and in technique. This is extremely important — without innovation, you will be looked down upon."},{"t":"img","f":"img-24","w":1080,"h":608},{"t":"p","x":"杰夫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Jeff"},{"t":"p","x":"与其说是国内国外的理念区别，我觉得不如说是老一辈和新一代的区别。毕竟在美国也有一大批以前很有名，现在拍的东西实在无法看的所谓老法师。","b":false,"xe":"Rather than a difference between domestic and foreign philosophies, I feel it is more a difference between the older generation and the new. After all, America also has a large batch of so-called \"old masters\" (老法师) who were once very famous but whose current work is really unwatchable."},{"t":"p","x":"但是，所谓老一辈和新一辈的差别，更多的是心态上的老和新，不一定是实际年纪上的。比如和90后相比，我这个60后自然也是老法师，但是我，至少目前我坚决不承认我固步自封，不愿意接受新事物，反正打死我都不承认。","b":false,"xe":"But the so-called difference between the old generation and the new is more about an old versus new mindset — not necessarily actual age. For example, compared with the post-90s generation, I as a post-60s person am naturally an \"old master\" — but I, at least for now, firmly refuse to admit that I am complacent and unwilling to accept new things. You couldn't beat that admission out of me."},{"t":"p","x":"我认为我还挺能接受新事物的。此外我认识一些国内60-70岁的老师还在不断创新呢。年纪再大，我们也应该保持开放的心态。","b":false,"xe":"I think I'm actually quite good at accepting new things. Besides, I know some domestic teachers in their 60s and 70s who are still constantly innovating. However old we get, we should keep an open mind."},{"t":"img","f":"img-25","w":1080,"h":635},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Thomas"},{"t":"p","x":"另外，很多很好的中国年轻摄影师热衷全世界跑，去那些热门打卡点拍摄。他们的技术已经很好了。我觉得对每一个个体来说这当然没错。但作为一个群体，我觉得大家应该更多地去深入发掘中国独特风光。","b":false,"xe":"In addition, many excellent young Chinese photographers love traveling all over the world to shoot at popular check-in spots. Their technique is already very good. For each individual, this is of course not wrong. But as a group, I feel everyone should dig deeper into China's unique landscapes."},{"t":"p","x":"中国有太多全世界最顶级的地貌，中国摄影师在这方面的优势自然无人能比，千万别浪费了。我梦想去这些地方拍，可现在没机会去。我很高兴看到有几位优秀的年轻摄影师如卡卡，Tony Wang等，名字太多不列了，他们很专注中国西部风光，但我觉得这个群体还可以更大一些。","b":false,"xe":"China has so many of the world's top landforms — Chinese photographers have an unmatched advantage here; don't waste it. I dream of shooting in these places but have no chance to go now. I am very glad to see several outstanding young photographers such as Kaka (卡卡), Tony Wang, and others — too many names to list — who are very focused on the landscapes of western China, but I think this group could be even bigger."},{"t":"h","x":"7. 对年轻摄影师的建议","xe":"7. Advice for Young Photographers"},{"t":"p","x":"Thomas：","b":false,"xe":"Thomas："},{"t":"p","x":"想请问一下您们这些60后/70后的摄影师，对80/90/00后的这些年轻的摄影师的看法是怎么样的？有什么建议吗？","b":false,"xe":"May I ask you photographers born in the 60s/70s: what do you think of the young photographers born in the 80s/90s/00s? Any advice?"},{"t":"p","x":"杰夫：","b":false,"xe":"Jeff:"},{"t":"p","x":"我觉得八零后九零后包括零零后这一代摄影师，他们一个很强的一个很明显的一个特征就是他们是互联网时代，或者我们讲e时代的摄影师。","b":false,"xe":"I think the post-80s, post-90s, and even post-00s generation of photographers has one very strong, very obvious characteristic: they are photographers of the internet age — or as we say, the e-era."},{"t":"p","x":"这一代的人，就完全绕开了国内的这个老法师的这个体系，他们完全是互联网上学习，互联网上分享，互联网上提高，甚至在互联网上成名。","b":false,"xe":"This generation completely bypassed the domestic \"old master\" system: they learn entirely on the internet, share on the internet, improve on the internet, and even become famous on the internet."},{"t":"img","f":"img-26","w":1080,"h":608},{"t":"p","x":"杰夫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Jeff"},{"t":"p","x":"我觉得这一代年轻人，是对这个现代的摄影理念、技术、技巧的同步性和学习的狂热性，以及他们拍摄学习的条件，是我们这一代的人是没办法达到的，因此，我绝对相信他们都是摄影的未来。","b":false,"xe":"I feel this generation of young people — in their synchronization with modern photographic concepts, techniques, and skills, in their fanaticism for learning, and in the conditions under which they shoot and learn — has reached a level our generation simply could not. Therefore, I absolutely believe they are the future of photography."},{"t":"p","x":"那么还有一个，就是对于我们这些六零后的老家伙怎么办？我觉得长江后浪推前浪，我们这些前浪不想被拍死在沙滩上，我们只有不停的鞭策自己去走在行业的顶端。","b":false,"xe":"And one more thing: what about us old fellows born in the 60s? I think the waves behind drive on those before; if we front waves don't want to die on the beach, we can only keep whipping ourselves onward to stay at the top of the industry."},{"t":"p","x":"比如说后期里面，人工智能现在开始比较深入地引入到后期技术里面，前两天有一个国外的一个很好的一个人工智能的软件叫topaz，云漫老师就写了一篇topaz的Gigapixel 的，这个就是放大的插值放大的这个软件的测评。我也写了这个topaz人工智能降噪的这个测评。另外就是我也会明后天，把“杰夫流程”最新的利用人工智能提高画质的这个新的工作流程再和大家分享。","b":false,"xe":"For example, in post-processing, artificial intelligence is now being introduced quite deeply into post techniques. Just the other day there was a very good foreign AI software called Topaz — Teacher Yunman wrote a review of Topaz Gigapixel, the interpolation enlargement software, and I wrote a review of Topaz's AI noise reduction. Also, in the next day or two, I will share with everyone the latest \"Jeff Workflow\" (杰夫流程) — a new workflow using AI to improve image quality."},{"t":"img","f":"img-27","w":1080,"h":720},{"t":"p","x":"杰夫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Jeff"},{"t":"p","x":"所以，九零后，八零后九零后，包括以后零零后的崛起，对于我们来说，其实给了我们一个更强的紧迫感——要赶上时代，站在时代前端。因此，他们的出现不但代表了摄影的未来，而且对于我们这些已经开始走向我们摄影的后半程的这些老摄影师，是一个非常好的鞭策和鼓舞。","b":false,"xe":"So the rise of the post-90s — post-80s, post-90s, and later the post-00s — actually gives us a stronger sense of urgency: to keep up with the times and stand at their forefront. Therefore, their emergence not only represents the future of photography, but is also excellent motivation and inspiration for us veteran photographers who have already begun the second half of our photographic journey."},{"t":"img","f":"img-28","w":1080,"h":810},{"t":"p","x":"云漫 作品","b":false,"xe":"Work by Yunman"},{"t":"p","x":"访谈组织方：澳洲地平线俱乐部","b":false,"xe":"Interview organizer: Australian Horizon Club (澳洲地平线俱乐部)"},{"t":"p","x":"访谈嘉宾：云漫、杰夫、范朝亮、北京张子","b":false,"xe":"Interview guests: Yunman (云漫), Jeff (杰夫), Fan Chaoliang (范朝亮), Beijing Zhangzi (北京张子)"},{"t":"p","x":"访谈主持人：Thomas看看世界","b":false,"xe":"Interview host: Thomas Chu Photo"},{"t":"p","x":"访谈文字整理：点点","b":false,"xe":"Interview transcript: Diandian (点点)"},{"t":"p","x":"稿件整理：Thomas看看世界","b":false,"xe":"Manuscript editing: Thomas Chu Photo"},{"t":"img","f":"img-29","w":1080,"h":608},{"t":"h","x":"欢迎关注托马斯的旅行与摄影攻略","xe":"Follow Thomas for more travel and photography guides"}],"titleEn":"Dialogue with Four Photography Masters"}